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March 12, 2004, Special Council Meeting

The special meeting of Clarion Borough Council was held on March 12, 2004, in the Assembly Room of the Clarion Free Library.

President Wilshire called the meeting to order at 1:25 p.m.

Councilmembers present included Messrs. Zerfoss, Herman, Crooks, Ms. Moore, and President Wilshire.   Ms. Vavrek and Mr. German were absent.   Ms. Lapinto, Mr. Stutzman, and Chief Hall were also present.   Mayor Smathers was absent.

President Wilshire:   I’d like to thank the public and State Senator White and State Representative McIlhattan for taking time out of their busy schedule to meet with us today regarding the topic of the large number of tax exempt properties within Clarion Borough.   I do want to emphasize that this is an informational meeting, one in which the members of Council and the public intend to offer our concerns about the impact of the number of non-taxables on the town and it surrounding communities.   The problem has existed for many years and no one here should assign any blame.   Hopefully, this meeting will serve as a step in identifying solutions to Clarion Borough in gaining additional support to alleviate the situation.   It’s a matter of record that only 29% of the property in Clarion Borough is taxable.   This includes many different entities such as churches, non-profit organizations, Clarion County, and others; but to be sure the vast majority of tax-exempt property is owned by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania for Clarion University.   For this meeting, I’d like each Councilmember to offer their opinions on the matter in an orderly, civil, and concise manner, so we can all be friends when this meeting is over.   Then following that, we’ll ask members of the public for comments and then allow Senator White and Representative McIlhattan to make any comments.  

Representative McIlhattan: Can we ask questions of the (unintelligible).

President Wilshire: Sure, sure.

Representative McIlhattan: That helps us to try to (unintelligible).

President Wilshire: Sure.   Just want to try to keep this moving along as fast as possible.   Starting with Councilmembers, we’ll just go by the table there, if anybody has any comments.   Earl?

Mr. Zerfoss: My question to Representative McIlhattan and Senator White, is I came on Council in the 1960’s, and been on most of the time, all, off every now and then.   But when I came on Council, the assessed value in the town was pretty close to 40%; and then at one time, it went down to 37 and then 33.   And I think Ron you said now it’s down to 29.   So, in this particular, since the area that’s going to grow is the University and I’m not, that’s what I point out, more property will continue to come off the tax rolls in their 20-25 Year Plan.   And the services that we provide them to the taxpayers of the Borough are going to be more costly.   They’re going to have to pay more taxes.   We can only tax so much and then the people look elsewhere.   And, in our case, then it affects not only the County but it affects the School District.   Clarion Area School District would have to raise too because they need to operate.   And in the past years, I know different Councilmembers and the Mayor had formed a Town and Gown and they had different meetings.   But I think it eventually became more social than productive because nothing has changed, come about as far as what can we do and that.   I don’t think really they could because there’s 14 universities that are located in the Commonwealth and I’m sure the other areas have the same problems we do.   And I don’t think we can look to the University.   Because one time we did and they said no, they can’t.   Well you can’t work with, inotherwords, Clarion Borough with Clarion University and Edinboro and so forth.   I think if we’re going to get relief it has to come from the House of Representatives and the Senate, because they, the Commonwealth owns the land.   And I don’t think the University itself, they do give to the fire department but that’s it.   And the services again that we provide, our fire protection, which they do; police, I know they have their own but a lot of the activities happen in the town where our people are involved and we go up there; maintaining the highways.   And I think the new commissioner that replaced McCormick, one of the questions I think I read in one of the papers was that she does not feel or she won’t get into a discussion where the college or the students would have to pay taxes or charge a $10 or $20 per student going to each university.   She said no, that she would not entertain anything like that, because she thinks the students pay enough to the Town of Clarion and they do.   I’m glad the University is in Clarion and no where else.   But we’re looking for relief.   And we think now the best way to start to see if we can, and that’s why we’re glad that you came Fred and Mary Jo, and it needs to start at your level from here.  

Representative McIlhattan: The 29% that you derive at in taxes is that dollar wise or parcel wise?   I guess my question’s this.   Earl, let’s say I have a piece of real estate and there are six houses on those and those houses are worth $100,000 a piece in value.   And the college buys that area and takes them down and they build a building on there and it’s worth $2 million.   Do we factor the $2 million figure in or do we use the original $600,000?   I’m just asking.

President Wilshire: The $2 million, whatever it’s appraised at.

Representative McIlhattan: So, you’re using the higher value really.   So, you could say (unintelligible) right?   That was my question.   My point is if you have a piece of real estate that has $600,000 sitting on it.   And my point is somebody buys that and takes that over and doesn’t pay taxes, you lose that part of the tax.   But are you adding the total cost of their building and using that in figuring it into your figure?

Ms. Lapinto: No.

Representative McIlhattan: No, you just use the original $600,000?   Okay, I just wanted to know that.

Senator White: I just to comment that I have been through this before.   About 3 years ago, Slippery Rock is also another, about 3 years ago, we met with the Borough of Slippery Rock and Slippery Rock University and tried to come up with a solution to exactly the problem you’re describing.   It was at that time we came up with the idea of a $5 per semester public safety charge to be paid by each student out of their student activity fee.   And you’re correct.   What happened, and this was even before Chancellor Hample, I believe, (unintelligible) resisted.   I thought it seemed like kind of a no brainer.   I mean we have code inspection enforcement, you know, we have all kinds of things.   But it was not well received as you said; you’re absolutely correct on your fact.   So, it sort of went away at that time because we didn’t have any other good ideas.   The idea, we did the purely Public Charity Law, changed that law about what, 2 years ago Fred,

Representative McIlhattan: Yes.

Senator White: 2 years ago, and the idea was to have the Foundation, from some of the other areas, make payments in lieu of taxes.   And I know that has worked in some cases and not worked in others.   But it obviously hasn’t been a (unintelligible).   I’m willing to try to do a bill to change the tax code.   But I am here to tell you, I really don’t feel there’s a huge chance of success.   And that is very frustrating, but I’m telling you the truth.   I mean we can put it through, we can work on it; but as you know, it affects relatively few communities if you’re dealing only with the State System.   If you’re dealing with all municipalities that have high amounts of tax-exempt property, look at the City of Pittsburgh, with all the banks and universities, they are screaming for relief on this.   The City of Harrisburg, where almost all the property is owned by the Commonwealth.   If we were to make all of those taxable in some form, the impact would be huge and the opposition to it would be tremendous.   So, I don’t know how we get a solution that helps, for example, only the State System towns, only the Boroughs, without (unintelligible) huge Pittsburgh tax problem that they’re going through right now.   A big part of what, which is exactly what you’re talking about, I mean it’s a large amount of tax-exempt properties from the universities and hospitals and banks in the City of Pittsburgh.   Now we could try to account each of those urban class or we could try to be creative on this, but, and then, of course, we back into the bigger issue of tax reform across the board.   You know property tax is something serious.   If we were to ever find, and trying to do that for the whole state, I mean it’s the most frustrating issue I have dealt with in my 7+ years now in state government.   The fact that we cannot solve the property tax problem that we have today.   Because everybody has a different idea of how you replace that revenue.   You know if you’re on the border state, when you got, if they don’t like the sales tax changes, because people leave, border counties, you have people move back and forth.   (Unintelligible) tax on clothes and food, bring in quite a bit of revenue but (unintelligible) poor people harder plus you got all these people from Canada to buy clothes and Erie and at the Outlet Mall.   So, trying to fix the tax system and trying to, you know, to deal with this issue on itself, it just doesn’t have legs.   I don’t think.   Because the State System did a study, just about every university, to show how much money the university brings into the community and it’s pretty compelling.   So, when you try to say, and I understand that that doesn’t stay in the Borough and that’s (unintelligible), it’s not a match, you know.   So, I continue to believe that probably the best solution is that public safety charge, if we could get it going.   Because otherwise, we just walk into a buzz saw of tax political issue.   That’s my opinion.   And I came to that after going through this exercise with Slippery Rock and coming out kind of frustrated on the whole (unintelligible).

President Wilshire: Rich?

Mr. Herman:   I haven’t really worked very closely with both of you before.   Earl and I have really asked for this meeting because of seeing where the tax structure is in the Borough and where we’re headed.   I’m not sure (unintelligible) perspective, but I was fortunate enough I was born and raised not too many blocks away from Helen Gerlach (unintelligible) Ellwood City, which is a borough and does not have a university in the town itself.   Although it has its own business problems, did not have the kind of non-taxable properties in the Borough that the boroughs in the 14 university towns certainly have.   I’ve been fortunate enough to work here in Clarion for 24 years, so it’s been great for me.   And I think some of the things that have been asked in the expansion of the University in the past 24 years that I’ve been here are certainly explainable and the right thing to do.   I think what the Foundations have done in all the 14 universities as to how they figured in the process.   Part of the process though in expansion, as I see it at least, going back to a few years ago in the newer expansion started basically about the (unintelligible) administration when they asked for some money back when they were looking at a budget (unintelligible).   From around that time on, it appears as though as the university (unintelligible) somewhat involved in a 5, 10, 15-year plans and seeing them grow.   And that became very obvious through, I’ll just give you one example, dormitories.   Dormitories were asked to be fitted with sprinkler systems.   And they were ordered to put in those sprinkler systems yet there was, no monies came down to actually fund sprinkler systems in the dormitories.   Universities with funding strains beginning to dry up a little bit I think from the State looked at situations where the new building, (unintelligible) anything like that and State System wanting the schools to begin to modernized and expand and grow.   A lot of the schools now are building apartment-type complexes (unintelligible) up and running and organized now.   Some of our dormitories are becoming off-line.   This has certainly come over the years of planning and fundraising on each (unintelligible) not just Clarion alone.   This expansion, which is needed to keep the University going great, it keeps the town going, still manages in some way to perform whether it’s through the Foundation or whether it’s through the University itself to purchase property.   And as that property continues to be purchased and expanded, whether as Earl said the tax base or the tax percent continues to dwindle, I think what scares at least our municipality, I won’t speak for everyone else, is number 1, we don’t want to raise taxes in a town as ours where 29% of the properties are taxable and try to offer, not elevated services the same basic services.   And we’ve been able to try to cut corners, and Carol’s done a tremendous job as previous Councils have done a tremendous job with that.   But with healthcare and everything else, as you are certainly aware, just in the last few years alone, our health insurance paid just for the Borough employees has gone up $31,000.   And in a small town, with nothing to the budget, that’s a lot of money.   And that’s not taking into consideration figures I got from Carol on workman’s comp, trying to keep the fire department obviously up and running.   The expansion, as the Borough has run out of developmental property, is obviously passing to the townships.   And so the townships now are going to be benefiting greatly from this expansion.   Those people, much like Pittsburgh is screaming about people coming into the city, I’ve watched a lot on PCN with the hearings and (unintelligible).   In a way, I think you may underestimate the power of what’s going on with the Pittsburgh situation, the amount of graduates from the State University System, such as Don White or Jack Wagner just (unintelligible) alone, who may look at this and say ‘this is a perfect opportunity to not just solve the problem in Pittsburgh but look at these 14 boroughs and say we’re going to link those in, we’re going to try to help those boroughs to be able to meet’, now whether it’s in the same legislation or similar legislation

Senator White: It couldn’t.   I don’t think it could be.

Mr. Herman: or separate legislation.

Senator White: They’re a city of the second class and they’re in Act 49 distressed status.   I mean I don’t think there’s any linkage here that we could benefit from.   But I’m willing to try something else.

Mr. Herman: This is obviously our plight.   This is the plight of the Borough.   The Borough doesn’t want to raise taxes; it doesn’t feel like it needs to raise taxes any more.   But with the dwindling tax base, you know, if the other borough like Ellwood City and the land is all developed, it will be developed in different ways.   You can redesign your community to try to increase your tax base.   But it’s different than Clarion.   So, these are the problems that I see us having.   Again, I’m certainly not placing blame on the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania or Clarion University or the Foundation.   I think they’re all responding to the needs that the State has set down and asked the University to do.   But what it has done over the past 10 or 15 years is as those universities now begin to expand further and it’s starting to eat away at costs and we need some relief.   That’s the track as I see it happen (unintelligible) so many years.   Thank you.

President Wilshire: Jim.

Mr. Crooks: A couple things Rich mentioned that I think we need to explore is also, and this really bothers me not only the university but the amount of services that we surrender to the neighboring townships is staggering and growing, growing, growing.   You know, over 50% of our fire calls are outside the Borough today; and that’s a whole another issue.   But I just want to be on record as saying I think that the University has done a very commendable job of being part of the community.   As a member of the community, I really feel that we live in a college town and everyone that lives here benefits.   I wouldn’t be here, and many of you wouldn’t be here, if it wasn’t for the University.   Because it’s just provided an opportunity that we could make a living and live a good lifestyle in a college town and have great sports, great athletics, great entertainment, great speakers, it’s just endless.   It’s a wonderful, I mean whoever thought of planning these 14 state schools, spreading them out throughout rural Pennsylvania, really was a brilliant.   And really one of the keys that maintained Pennsylvania as a rural state for many years, although I recently realized now that more people live in a metropolitan area in Pennsylvania than rurally.   I think that just switched in the last (unintelligible)

Senator White: They changed some definitions.

Mr. Crooks: Yea.   I guess Clarion is no longer considered rural (unintelligible).   After I say all that, I think the big problem that has come up that I see as a landlord also is because the state has dropped their funding of universities over the last years, the universities have all started foundations.   So, they’ve put on tremendous fundraising challenges in all the communities to build up their foundations so that the foundation can support more and more of the university’s activities, which I completely understand.   What’s happened in the last few years, which kind of concerned, has flags flying for me is that now with the tax laws there’s more and more landlords that have given their property to the Foundation.   And now the Foundation becomes a competitor to people like we have out here (referring to audience) 4 or 5 other landlords that are investing their hard-earned dollars back into the community or the private sector.   They’re paying taxes on their property.   And now the foundation is kind of technically competing with them and not paying taxes on their property.   Now we thought that would be solved with the in lieu of, and I thought that was working out great; because the Foundation and the Foundation saw that issue and they were gracious enough to say ‘hey, we recognize that; we don’t want to compete’.   Because these people that are sitting out here, they’re big contributors to the Foundation, too, and they don’t want to be competitors to the private landlords.   But now that just recently all went in and we got a letter saying that they’re taking that in lieu of money and putting it in an escrow account, so we’re not getting that in lieu of money because that’s going to go to the court.   And what if the court decides; and I think that issue to me is more important than the property that the University actually owns itself.   You know, I think the State’s putting the pressure on the Foundation to raise money to support more services of the University.   But they’re doing it, they’re inheriting all kinds of property, and they’ve inherited some very good parcels in the Borough.   Because of tax reasons, people have given them their properties.   So, now that’s in jeopardy and that concerns me.   I don’t want to raise the taxes.   I think Clarion Borough probably is run, if you really look at how this Borough is run due to the great guidance of Carol and, being on this 10 years, really dedicated excellent Council, it’s run with a fine tooth comb.   I mean every dime is accounted for; and really when you think of the average tax burden of the property owners in the Borough, it’s very, very reasonable.   I always say when people talk to me about taxes, I always say break up your school taxes Dr. Kaufman, don’t count them in on the Borough.   Everybody likes to group it all together and blame Council for school taxes, county, city taxes, and Borough taxes.   But most of the residents in the Borough pay less for taxes than they pay for cable television on their property.   And it’s a fabulous, fabulous bargain when you think police protection, fire protection, street lights, paved highways and alleys, library, the park, what?

Ms. Lapinto: Recreation.

Mr. Crooks: Recreation, and, my goodness, recycling and clean-up day.   I mean they get a tremendous value for the dollar.   Tremendous.   But the thing that concerns me is what about this in lieu of money, what is going to happen to those who get money that we’re counting on?

Senator White: My understanding is that money is not going to go away.   I have not been following that case as closely as I should.   But my understanding is that money’s in escrow until the court decides what the correct

Ms. Lapinto: We did receive a portion of our money.   In fact, we received the majority of it.

Mr. Crooks: But what if the court decides that it’s not legal?

Senator White: I don’t think that’s the issue.   I think the issue is the amount.   Is that correct, Ron?

Ms. Lapinto: No, I believe it’s the issue of whether it’s legal.

Senator White: Oh, whether they have to pay it at all?

Ms. Lapinto: Yes.

Senator White: If that’s the case, then we’ll have to go back and fix the Public Charity Law because we thought we worked (unintelligible).

President Wilshire: Thank you Jim.   Elaine.

Ms. Moore: Well I’m not going to restate the problem, because I think everybody understands what the basic problem is.   I do want to make a statement that this did not come to us as a surprise.   Being much younger than Councilman Zerfoss, I didn’t come on Council until 1980.   But at that time, we were talking about this shrinking tax base that was looming in the future.   Well 23 years later, this is the future and it is here.   I do have a question for you, Senator White, you had mentioned Slippery Rock.   Are they doing it, the $5?

Senator White: No.

Ms. Moore: They are not?

Senator White: No.   I think the position of Slippery Rock University was that it would have to be system wide and approved by the

Ms. Moore: So, it was never put in.

Senator White: It was not implemented, no.   But we broached the subject, it was (unintelligible).   But we could try again.   It is a new chancellor, it is a new; and maybe another way to go at this is to oppose the state system.

President Wilshire: Carol, do you have anything?

Ms. Lapinto: Just wanted to comment.   Rich was talking about the mayor of the boroughs had formed a committee and I was active in that as well as Dr. Yoho.   What had happened then, it got turned over to the League of Cities.   And they wanted to do this massive study which would cost each one of us about $50,000, and we don’t have $50,000.

Senator White: To tell you what you already know.

Ms. Lapinto: Right.   So, at that point, we became somewhat uninvolved.   But I still receive all their mail.   And I was Chairman of the Town-Gown Committee for the Borough’s Association.   So, I’ve been around the block on this.   It’s very frustrating.   Because the University, I believe, would like to help, but both financially and by law, they are not allowed.

President Wilshire: Right.

Ms. Lapinto: And we signed an agreement with Dr. Reinhard whereby we receive $15,000 a year, and she did provide for us, and that was fire service.   And we give $10,000 of that directly to the fire company and then $5,000 comes to the Borough.   It’s very frustrating.   It’s almost just like running like a chicken with your head cut off, because (unintelligible) problem but there’s no way (unintelligible).   And I’ve discussed this with both of you before (unintelligible).

Representative McIlhattan: I was talking to the League just the other day we had a discussion, they’re moving back on that again.   That’s their top issue, (unintelligible) dealing with that.   Do you have a silver bullet you’re looking at?   You’re talking about you don’t want to raise taxes.   Is there a certain amount of money that you feel somebody owes you, you’d like to have?   I mean, what’s going to solve this problem?   Do you have a figure in mind that you think the University or Commonwealth or someone or all of us or somebody that we could come up with?

Ms. Lapinto: Well our costs keep rising, yet we’re trying to live like we’re on social security on a fixed income and that’s the (unintelligible) for a long time.

Representative McIlhattan: Well let me you ask you this,

Ms. Lapinto: But we could use another police officer, but the increase in insurance and hospitalization has taken that entirely out of the picture.

Representative McIlhattan: let me ask you the number.   Do you have any data that shows that in the last 10 years this and this and this parcel has been purchased by the Commonwealth or non-profit organization and because of that this amount of tax dollars we don’t have any more.   Do you have that type of data to look at?  

Ms. Lapinto: No.

Representative McIlhattan: And we should say we should make up 50% of that.   There’s no data here to look at, right?

Ms. Lapinto: That’s correct.

Ms. Moore: But would not be difficult to get would it?

Ms. Lapinto: No, because we have it there

Representative McIlhattan:   It’s not pulled out.

Ms. Lapinto: It’s not calculated into dollars.

Representative McIlhattan: You see what I’m saying.   Because I just read an article, I think it was in 1999 edition of the Clarion News I was going back through just the other day and that’s when Yoho was Mayor.   And it said the college had bought this parcel of ground and because of that we are losing $1,875 of taxes each year.

Mr. Herman: And that’s correct.

Representative McIlhattan: And my point is do we have a running total on that, do we know what that is?

Mr. Herman: I know it certainly could be had.   There are some parcels that were purchased by the University and some parcels that were purchased by the Foundation.  

Representative McIlhattan: Yea.

Mr. Herman: Those purchased by the University are non-taxable, and those purchased by the Foundation

Representative McIlhattan: You see what I’m getting at?

Mr. Herman: pay in lieu of taxes.   Yes.

Representative McIlhattan: Do we have a total figure, let’s say, in the last decade what would that be?   You see what I’m saying?   How many dollars in taxes has the Borough lost?

Mr. Herman: There are potentially two other issues along with this, Representative, and one would be, one that is sort of out there floating and everyone seems to be afraid to really talk about, and that is there seems to be an idea that or potential, and I don’t know if this potential is right or wrong but this is what we hear, that the current Foundation Board certainly; and the Foundation has done a great job, fine integrity and intent on paying their payments in lieu of taxes, what if that changes?   What if that all of a sudden becomes, those payments are in the way.   A new set of people come in and they say ‘well we don’t want to have payments in lieu of taxes anymore and we’re going to take this plan and just give it back to the University from the Foundation’, which would make it non-taxable property.   I don’t know that that’s a possibility.   You hear that, that that is a possibility.   That threat is out there looming, that that could also be lost.   So, not only are we concerned and think about what’s

Representative McIlhattan: Yea.

Mr. Herman: not there now, could we lose what we currently have?   And that, whether it be through the courts or whether it be through the 10-15 years from now, somebody, some new administration comes in and says ‘we’re going to give this money back to the University’.   They’ll run it how they see fit and then it will be non-, it will all be non-taxable property.   That could happen with the new Reinhard Villages or estate, where the township right now is looking at it as potential tax money but they get nothing.  

Representative McIlhattan: But you don’t have those figures?

President Wilshire: We could get those figures.   Basically, they would include the payment in lieu of taxes that were being made, but I’m talking just Borough property

Representative McIlhattan: Yes.

President Wilshire: that has been made plus any that were purchased by the University.

Representative McIlhattan: For the decade and how much of a net loss you have?

President Wilshire: We can get that for you.

Representative McIlhattan: Net loss that you have, (unintelligible) exactly know what that figure was.   The occupational privilege tax, how much of that comes from the University?   Do you have any idea?

Ms. Lapinto: No, no, and that would be through our wage tax collector.

Representative McIlhattan: You get a half of that, right?   You get half of the $10 from occupation privilege tax?

Ms. Lapinto: Yes.

Representative McIlhattan: I assume that would be one of your biggest contributors, right?

Ms. Lapinto: Wage taxes.

Representative McIlhattan: And the University would be one of your major payers of that?

Ms. Lapinto: Yes.

Representative McIlhattan: So, imagine if you slid that around one way or the other that would

President Wilshire: Okay.   I just had a couple comments before I open it to the public.   Years ago the residence hall, the structure was financed by the State.   After the 60’s or so, that responsibility was placed on the University as an auxiliary account.   So, if any new non-academic buildings are constructed that has to be paid for by student fees.

Senator White: (Unintelligible) big recreation centers and all that kind of stuff, it’s all paid by (unintelligible).

President Wilshire: Or any new residence halls have to be paid for by student funds or self supporting.   And that creates a problem.   I think a town like Clarion and the other 13 in that in the absence of the construction of new residence halls and keeping up with what the State had already furnished this cottage industry of people moving out of town, selling their homes is partly in that surface.   And I think in the long run that has set a negative aspect on the community.   And I still think that more housing should have been constructed by the University to keep them centered in that and also allow the growth to the community.   Because (unintelligible) structures that also provides you additional property tax, you know, wage tax and that type of thing.   I think it would be a real political nightmare.   But the underlying problem is that there’s not just enough room to spread out because of this.   Our municipalities are too small or, you know, and that’s been discussed at the state level and still nothing’s been done.   You know, we’re handcuffed in terms of really, I guess technically it could be done, but realistically

Senator White: You want us to force you to do it.   I can tell you it’s very, we’ll talk about it.  

President Wilshire: Yes, I think that’s the only way it will happen.  

Senator White: You know politically the Borough from municipalities and townships simply do not want that to happen.   We try, and I think what we could do and I think you’re right on this, what we could do is offer more incentives for communities to consolidate into a larger (unintelligible) for which they could spread more.   And I think we are looking at more incentive in particularly as opposed to mandating this, that you must merge.

Mr. Herman: But that would be a real plus.

Senator White: It would and it would help relieve some of the pressure.

Mr. Herman: There’s no question about it.  

Ms. Lapinto: Believe this, there’s 2760 municipalities.

Senator White: Second largest in the country, Illinois, I think

Ms. Lapinto: And I think the bigger problem has come now when we do that is the division of school districts.   Because people are very parochial.  

President Wilshire: No, we don’t want to get into that now.   But going back a long time, maybe even before Earl was on Council, when each town had a school and that type of thing, you know, there was a Shippenville High School and Strattanville High School or whatever, and then the State came in and forced mergers.   I think for schools that we have.   I mean that would have never happened if some body like the State had come in, it wouldn’t have happened.   I mean you can talk about encouraging people to do that and that, but someone has to bite the bullet and say ‘this is going to be done’.

Mr. Crooks: Yea.

Senator White: I don’t think I’ll see that in my lifetime.   But I think the incentives have been discussed and it’s actually, we talked with the head of DCED (unintelligible) about this kind of issue about making increased funds available to municipalities that (unintelligible) planned joining.   We’re not talking full merger at that point, but I think we could do a lot more there towards encouraging that kind of consolidation with the shared resources (unintelligible) combine them.   I think that problem of, you know, all the third class cities have it where they’re provided for the outlying communities.   I mean there are a lot of communities, (unintelligible) their communities have as many as 50,000-60,000 people down in Westmoreland County that have no state police coverage.  

Mr. Crooks: Yea.

Senator White: And, you know, that’s putting a drain on the state police.   I mean there should be services that communities have to provide if they are a certain size.   So, we’ve got a lot of work we can do there.   But I think on some of these issues that if the incentives (unintelligible).

Mr. Crooks: That’s a good idea.

Mr. Zerfoss: What you said, Senator, I agree with you.   Because back in the 60’s when I was on the Council, we even talked about what would happen if we gave, say in 2 years, we’re going to dissolve the Borough of Clarion.   Now who’s going to, someone’s going to have to take this over, you know.   I mean we were hurting then.   But someone needs to, we can only go so far and then

President Wilshire: Well back in those laws I was talking about that restrict any kind of merger, you can’t even give it away.   You have to have a vote.   If you dissolve, you have to vote to dissolve and I believe each municipality has to vote with the majority approving it.   So, you can’t even walk away from it, and, you know, it be absorbed by Clarion Township.

Ms. Lapinto: And then you cannot bring it up another time for 5 years.

President Wilshire: Yea. But let’s get to the public comments.   If you’d just like to state your name and your comments.   You want to start from the back, if anyone has any comments.

Terry Pope: You know I’ve thought for about 25 years how it would be nice to appear to Borough Council and be able to say just what I thought not what the company thought.   And that’s what I’m going to do today.   The opinions you’re going to hear from me are my own personal opinion.   And in order to evaluate those, I think it’s appropriate to give a little background.   First of all, as far as the Borough’s concerned, I’ve been involved in the Borough for probably more time than anyone sitting here.   I was born and raised here and I volunteered a lot of my time.   When I was more physically fit, as a volunteer fireman.   I contributed 14 or 15 years doing that.   I worked with the Borough as it relates to the Autumn Leaf Festival.   I coordinated all the floats when I think we had bigger and better floats.   I was responsible for getting the funding for all those floats for the University students.   I am the Solicitor for the Clarion County Assessment Board.   And you need to know that, because I don’t think I have any conflicts here.   And I’m certainly disclosing my background for your examination.   I don’t work for any of the parties involved.   I don’t have a nickel in this, other than being concerned as a taxpayer.   As the Solicitor for the Board of Assessments, who was a voluntary group, their responsibility is to see that the taxes are assessed according to law and equally for the benefit of all the taxpayers in the taxing district.   As far as the University’s concerned, I’ve been involved there as well.   I’m a regular and what I consider substantial contributor to the Foundation.   But that has not and does not cause me to change my position to the issue that’s before this group.   I think that the tax exemption statute, the not-for-profit tax exemption statute has some substantial problems.   I think it’s poor legislation.   I think it was not thought out, and I think that we probably, at least listening to the comments here, missed some opportunities to correct some of the problem.   I know that the drafters of that legislation would be disappointed and surprised if they thought that they had drafted legislation which permits a tax-exempt entity to purchase property at it’s fair market value.   Some of the people here have been more polite than I will be and they said it was donated; it was not donated.   It was exchanged, those properties for a tax-exempt annuities significant value for the property holder.   But I think they’d be very surprised if they knew that that all occurred.   That those properties were commercial properties used for income-producing purposes, that they were given to a non-profit corporation who in turn claimed the properties were tax-exempt and went out and rented them for the same terms and conditions that they had done in a private enterprise, and not only that that the boards of those non-profit corporations, the individual members had gained substantially, economically from those business activities.   I think that those people who drafted that legislation would be very surprised.   But the issue is not that here today.   And as Ron said we’re all going to leave as friends.   But the issue is really about tax assessment.   I think we have to look at the tax assessment law to understand what the issues are, and know what the tax assessment purposes were for.   The tax assessment, real estate tax assessment was done for one purpose, I think, and that is to cover cost.   It wasn’t done for any other purpose than to allow a taxing jurisdiction to have money to provide police, fire protection, school, recreation, whatever it is, that’s the purpose of those monies.   That’s what they live on.   And the idea and the concept was that everyone would pay their fair share.   Theoretically, if you had real estate in town, you benefited and you paid your tax.   It is pretty simple.   And as a matter of fact, I think this whole issue is simple to me.   One of the problems of the statute, I think, is it exempts universities.   There’s no basis for it to exempt universities.   There would be a basis to exempt universities if all the students from the University were from Clarion County, because then we’d have nothing more than a circle and we’d be taxing ourselves.   But that’s not so.   That’s not what happens here.   The University students in Clarion Borough use the facilities of the Borough to the same extent as the residents.   And they don’t pay a dime for it.   Really what you’re doing, and what that statute does, is that forces every resident of Clarion Borough to donate to the University to make up for the fact that those people do not pair their share of the taxes and that’s just not fair.   Now being involved in the litigation involving tax exemption with the Foundation, I’ve learned one thing.   And it should have been more apparent to me than it was.   The school districts aren’t real interested in this issue as to whether or not the property is tax exempt or not.   The reason they’re not real interested in it is because the students in the Borough and the Township and the County do not contribute to their cost of doing business.   Inotherwords, whether there’s 5,000 students up there or 1, the cost of the school district is the same.   They don’t have any additional cost.   Entirely different from the Borough that has substantial cost and even the County who likewise has substantial cost.   All the services the County provides are used by these students at the University as well.   So, in reality, I understand now why the school districts aren’t too interested.   It doesn’t cost them anything.   If we were to make the University taxable, then the school districts would get a windfall, because they’re not providing the service, but yet they’re getting more money.   I don’t think that’s right.   When I read the article in the newspaper, the article said ‘considering additional legislation to help the Borough’.   I don’t think that’s what’s necessary.   What’s necessary is taking care of the legislation that we have.   And it’s simple.   It’s simply handled by saying ‘universities shall not pay school taxes’.   The reason why is because the schools don’t have any expense as it relates to those students.   And then go on to say, and I’m not here to tell you what number, but I don’t have any problem in suggesting this since I don’t work for the University or have anything in it, that the University improvements should be taxed as a percentage of what they otherwise would be.   Now whether than number’s 10% or 25% or whatever it is, that’s for someone other than me to say.   But since it’s easiest for me to understand simple concepts, this one seems to be the answer to me.   Now you say, and I heard you say, well it’s a hard concept.   And I think it really would be a hard concept to bring Pittsburgh into this deal and everybody else into this deal.   But the nice thing about this issue is unlike trying to determine whether it’s appropriate for YMC to be tax exempt and provide services that are similar to the guy down the street who’s trying to do it on a taxable basis, I like that, you’re actually debating the issue with yourself.   Because it’s the University property.   It’s the Commonwealth property.   It’s not taking on a third party, it’s not dealing with hospitals or recreational activities, it’s you yourself.   And all I’m asking and suggesting is that you treat it fairly.   The students that come to Clarion should not be here at the expense of the Borough residents.   They should be here at the expense of the entire Commonwealth system.   Inotherwords, if we take a number, say that the University will pay 25% of the Borough and County taxes, the next question comes well where are we going to get that money?   Well the answer is you should get it from its source.   Inotherwords, whose system is this?   It’s the Commonwealth’s system.   The Commonwealth should subsidize it.   Clarion Borough residents should not.   And shame on anybody that thinks that they should.   I mean I understand what Commonwealth and the educational system is trying to do.   They’re simply trying to say ‘we’re going to take this responsibility, this financial obligation and we’re going to shove it down to the municipality and let them fight it out’.   Create all kind of problems with them and let those taxpayers pay for it down there.   Those individual taxpayers which completely ignores that the students come from Erie, Scranton, Pittsburgh, you name it.   It’s a statewide benefit and the State should pay for it.   I’m not suggesting that the students should pay for it.   Maybe they should pay for some.   You know, I get a real kick out of thinking every time I drive passed the University, I see these kids talking on these cell phones.    They’re paying $25-50 a month.   That’s all it would cost.   Whether they want to pay it, or not or whether the system thinks they should pay it or not, I don’t know.   But I am reasonably convinced and certain that I’m not going to be a bump on a log and sit here and say ‘I don’t understand’.   I don’t want the University system to take advantage of me, as a taxpayer, or any other of my friends or residents that live here and say ‘you’re going to pay it because we don’t want to’.   Now that’s a bunch of baloney.   And I think, I see that issue and I hope you guys do, too.   And I know it’s a tough issue.   But it’s a fair issue, it’s an equitable issue.   And to do it the way they’re doing it is just creating all kinds of problems in this community that don’t exist.   Don’t need to exist, excuse me.   There’s no reason to have these legal issues going on.   There’s no reason to create all these façades.   There’s no reason, over the last 25 years I’ve heard all the good people at the University say ‘Terry, we’d like to help the Borough out, we’d like to make a payment but we’re legally not permitted’.   There’s no reason for that.   They should cover the costs, the system should cover the cost, and I think it’s so important to Clarion Borough because Clarion Borough has some geographic limitation.   What will make Clarion Borough grow now is the quality of life within the Borough.   The quality of life within the Borough can be improved by one of two things.   Either keeping the taxes where they are, Jim says they’re right where they need to be, and providing additional services that would come from the revenue that they would get to make it even yet more attractive to pull it up by boot straps more and make it superior or in the alternative reducing the taxes by the amount that they get and causing people to be attracted here more because of the fact that the taxes are low.   Either way it results in an immediate and obvious benefit.   Thanks.

President Wilshire:   Okay.   Still going from the back, any of the two gentlemen standing back there.   Barry, did you have anything?   Ron?

Ms. Barbara Songer:   I am a resident of Clarion Borough.   My late husband and I bought our property here in 1987 and moved here to live in that house in 1989.   I’m still living there.   I thank Terry Pope very much for expressing the fact that we, as residents, feel that our property tax is more because of the University not doing their fair share.   Thank you Terry.

Mr. Pope: You’re welcome.

President Wilshire: Thank you.   Bill, would you like to talk?

Mr. Bill Kaufman, Clarion Area School District: And I certainly don’t want this to go beyond this room or in the paper, but I largely agree with what Mr. Pope says.   That’s why I don’t want that to go too far.   Currently, the school district’s interest in the issue is somewhat different that the Borough and actually Mr. Pope highlighted those things well.   And I do agree with his central thesis.   In addition to what Terry said, the school district, of course, has opportunities for increased property value beyond the Borough.   The school district includes three townships.   And each year since I’ve been superintendent, both the market value and the assessed value of the properties within the school district have increased.   So, we don’t have the same geographic limitations and problems that the Borough has.   And I think because of that it is fair to make a distinction between if there’s going to be a change of universities do, in terms of payment to municipalities as opposed to school districts, because theirs is certainly a different service.   To state the obvious, the tax code was written for an entirely different Pennsylvania than what currently exists.   And (unintelligible), the exempt property was written at a time when you had the population center with nothing much out around, which provided services typically for just those population centers.   And now I guess we’re an urban area.   I live in the suburbs of Monroe Township, but now you have those municipalities providing services far beyond what was originally intended.   Secondly, again to state the obvious, the tax code was written at a time when there was a different Pennsylvania in terms of finances demographic, certainly a time when wealth was more evenly distributed throughout the Commonwealth.   In terms of if you look at things regarding average income in counties and municipalities 30-40 years ago, it’s very different demographic than what you see today where obviously there’s much more wealth in the southeastern part of the Commonwealth, so, that ultimately there needs to be a redistribution of funding based on that change in the state.   Now from the School District’s point of view, the payment in lieu of taxes agreement that we have with the Foundation was very appropriate, we were satisfied with those.   We would be satisfied if those would continue.   But I think this issue is very different than school issues, very different from school funding issues, because we look at what the mission of the Borough is in terms of services versus the mission of the school district in terms services.   If you look at how your funding sources from the Borough versus school district.   So, I think those ought to be a very separate issue.   (Unintelligible) as another little comment, we talked about the consolidation of the school districts a number of years ago.   There are 501 school districts prior to that there were 1500 and prior to that 2500.   Those consolidations such as one case, there’s one consolidation, one school district Woodland Hills in the Commonwealth that was put together by judicial order.   All the rest are by legislative orders.   There has never been a successful lasting merger of school districts that has been voluntary.

Senator White: There’s one just starting right now.

Dr. Kaufman: Okay.

Senator White: It will be interesting to watch.

Dr. Kaufman:   It will be.   But I appreciate the difficulty when you talk about let’s create incentives for people to merge.   My guess is they’re not going to do it.

President Wilshire: Dr. Kerr.

Dr. Robert Kerr: I want to commend Terry Pope for his very accurate observation about the problem and also his recommendation for a solution.   The problem has been here for a long time (tape flipped) legislature, Borough Council can’t solve the problem.   Only the legislators can solve the problem.   And because it hasn’t been solved over the past, how many years, 40 some, that doesn’t mean that our elected representatives, Senator White and Representative McIlhattan, shouldn’t bite the bullet and fix it now before Clarion Borough and the other 13 boroughs that house these university systems become like Pittsburgh.   I think your responsibility, as elected representatives, is to fix the problem.   You know what it is, you are the one that can fix it.   We can’t.   Therefore, my challenge to you is do something about it.   Don’t sit on your hands and say ‘oh, it’s a difficult problem and I don’t think we can fix it’ because you are the only ones who can fix it.   And I’m asking you today as a resident of the Borough of Clarion to fix it.

Senator White: Well I’m here to tell you that Fred and I are two legislators out of 259.   And if there is not sufficient support in the legislation to fix this, we can introduce bills from now until the cows come home and it simply isn’t going to happen.   The concern is, and I’m going to be very blunt with you, if we do it to the State System, there will be an outcry to do it for Penn State, University of Pittsburgh, all the private universities, and the hospitals and the churches. And that is what everyone is afraid of.   And there will be a huge outcry.   I personally think the easiest, political way to do it is with the $5 per semester assessment on the State System students as a public safety assessment.   Because to try to change the non-profit tax code, I think will open, we don’t have a chance.   I mean I can tell you we’ll do it and I’ll introduce the bill and I’ll fight for and I’ll get up on the floor and give just the same very eloquent speech that Terry just gave, but at the end of the day if it works I would be the most surprised person in the world.   And I’ll do it, I’ll do it.

Dr. Kerr:    Senator, I greatly appreciate what you just said, because you’re two people from a rural area; but, by the same token, until you start to try to do something, somebody else isn’t going to do it.   Someone has to lead the team.

Senator White: I agree we’ve got to get something in motion.   But I am not convinced that it is the macro tax changes that you’re talking about. I think it needs the assessment (unintelligible). I think it has a better chance at political success.   We obviously would get the legislators from those areas that have State Systems universities in them and we’d have a better chance at that.   I think that’s politically honest and realistically.

Dr. Kerr:   Then may I say that even though you say your bills may not pass, I would certainly look to see that each of you in your various legislators, the body, have at least introduced a bill to see if it will go and get something done.   Then we’ll know you’re trying for sure.    Up until the time that we see that legislation has been introduced by Senator White and Representative McIlhattan, if it doesn’t get proposed; then as far as I am concerned, you have not done what I think you should be doing and that is try to fix the problem.   And that’s my challenge to you folks.   Thank you.

Mr. Pope: There is a distinguishment in what I’m proposing.   I’m not worried about the hospitals and the churches and the local government

Senator White: No, you’re not, but they are.

Mr. Pope: But let me explain why they shouldn’t be.   Because in those situations, the benefit of the tax exemption are in the community.   Inotherwords, yes, the hospital’s exempt; but yes all the residents in the community use it.   That’s an entirely different situation than the university whether it’s state, private, or otherwise.

Senator White: Well that’s true at Clarion, but that’s not true at Presby or the big teaching hospitals, the university hospitals, (unintelligible), Hershey.   I mean they’re different issues.

Mr. Pope: Yes, in a different situation.   But I think there’s a substantial difference where even if you take those big teaching universities, the mass part, the big part of their clientele or their business is geographically centered around it.   That’s not the case in Clarion.   It’s just not.   And there’s nothing wrong, whether it’s Clarion or State College, we’re saying that those systems that the government created should be responsible for the tax burden created on that municipality.   The State didn’t create the hospital.   They didn’t put that in motion.   So, I don’t want to put that in the same category.   That’s a different animal.   I’m talking about what the State assumed responsibility for.   I’m talking about how the State is trying to create an animal and then make the Borough and local municipalities feed it.   That’s not right.   And that’s entirely different from the hospital situation that you’re talking about.

Senator White: No, see I understand it is in the Clarion context.   But when you look at the University of Pittsburgh, which is a state-related university that owns the hospital and trains physicians, they have the medical school.   You know, it’s hard for me to see where the people of Oakland or right around there are the beneficiaries of that, because it is a state-wide benefit as well.   I don’t bring that up to say that this is impossible.   I mean there may be a way that we limit it to counties of a certain class.   And Pittsburgh has it’s own situation that I think we can distinguish ourselves from.   I guess I’m looking at it from a standpoint of other little private colleges or universities.   Pennsylvania has hundreds of them.   And, you know, to the extent that you can say ‘well your students aren’t from my community, they come in from all over’.   They’ve got the same issue you’ve got.

Mr. Pope: Then they should be treated, particularly (unintelligible) it’s State created.   I mean the State creates these activities and decides how large they’re going to be.   There’s no response to the economic situation, which they put them.   The State says ‘we’re going to put it right here and it’s going to be this large’.   If they make those kind of judgments, they ought to be responsible for the cost that that facility puts on the municipality that provides the services.

Senator White: Well to the extent that we could keep this limited to the State System universities that you have, I think a better chance.

President Wilshire: Well what one of the things, because I think going off of what Terry said State System is the only State-owned university in the Commonwealth.   Penn State, Pitt, whatever, are State-related, Temple and I think another one, too, Lincoln.   So, the State-System universities are the only ones that are owned by the Commonwealth.   Penn State is a privte when it wants to be and public when it wants to be, but it’s State-related.   So, there is a State difference that you might focus on.

Ms. Amy Ujazdowski, C-93: I know there’s a lot of respective people here today.   And I’m a young female and that might not be valued as an opinion.   I’m not new to the area; but thank goodness for the University, I’ve been here for quite a few years.   I now am considered a resident; I pay local taxes to the area as well.   And I know that nobody wants to raise the taxes in the area.   It’s a very nice area to live in.   Looking into buying a home or whatever, they’re very nice and low.   I’m from the City of Pittsburgh, and I know what the taxes are like there.   I know that the Senator says that they brought up the idea at Slippery Rock of charging $5 a student for a “public safety fee”.   I know Mr. Crooks isn’t going to like this idea of the landlords, but how about $5 a renter.   Instead of a student paying a $1000 a semester, they pay $1005.   If you understand what I’m saying, and that’s part of their rental fee.   They won’t know what that is, it’s $5.   And then the landlord just converts that extra $5 over to the County, or not the County but the Borough and that solves that, not all the problem, but maybe a fraction.   Maybe that one police officer could be part of the system then.   And not only would the residents be more, not secure but more protected, but the University students will as well that live on campus.   And as Mr. Herman said before the Reinhard Estates are coming and they hope that it’s not going to be part of the untaxable money.   It’s going to be this large facility and it’s going to be beautiful, I hear.   And it’s going to be very expensive per semester per student.   And for the community sake, I hope that the University doesn’t take that over and make it a non-taxable facility.   And that’s another way they can contribute.   I know they are putting an outdoor pool, what does the facility need an outdoor pool for whenever students are only here from September to May.   That’s my look upon it.   I’m a grad student at the University.   But I do work full-time here, too, in the area, part of the media.   But as a new resident, and I hope to stay for awhile because I really do enjoy the area, that I hope that maybe if we don’t have to raise taxes something like that $5 a resident for the University student just hide it in that, not hide it in that landlord fee but I mean it’s only $5 more per student.   Whenever I was an undergrad and I paid $1000 a semester, $1400 a semester, an extra $5 wouldn’t matter, and then that could help maybe a fraction.

President Wilshire: Thank you.   Back on that fee, and I’m an employee of the University, I guess the problem I see with the fee is it might just be an easy way out.   You know, in terms of putting another fee on the student you’re still avoiding the Commonwealth responsibility that we have talked about here.   Okay, you heard from us, would you like to say anything more?

Senator White: No, I want to think a little bit about this, and I’ll have someone begin to draft something, maybe even draft a couple different versions.   And we’ll provide it to you for review.

President Wilshire: Fred?

Representative McIlhattan: Well I’m just sitting here thinking, that’s why I’ve asked before, do you have a target dollar in mind and I guess you don’t have.   You just want more, but you don’t know how much more you want.   A student fee is not popular, but we’re talking over things that we can accomplish within a reasonable length of time and get some help.   The other thing I wanted to look at the occupational privilege tax that you pay is basically when you work in an area, you pay an occupational privilege tax because I have a fire, police, and ambulance to serve me when I’m working there.   And the idea is for those areas that have a large amount of non-profit real estate, should there be an extra kicker for them?   Should they be able, instead of charging I think $10 now, if you have like 45% or 50% of your real estate non-taxable, should you be able to charge maybe $20 or $25.   You have to have kickers there, you know.   And that’s totally up, we make that enabling legislation basically, you know, you have the right to do that.   You don’t have to, but you as the Borough could, you know what I mean, that the folks would pay.

Mr. Pope: But all that does Fred is passes the burden on even to a greater extent to the people who are already overburdened.   Inotherwords, if the Borough Council then charges twice what they do for occupation tax, that means that everybody in the Borough here is paying again for something that they’re not benefiting.

Representative McIlhattan: Well, but look, outside, I’m paying, too, Terry, and I don’t live here and I’m going to pay it, right?

Mr. Pope: I don’t know.

Representative McIlhattan: You know what I mean, because it’s so, a lot of folks where I work (unintelligible) instead of paying $10, we’d be paying something different.   Because you have a burden that’s different than most cases.   See what I’m saying?

Mr. Pope: I hear what you’re saying.   But I don’t think it addresses the problem, because again you got to a State-imposed obligation that you’re trying to satisfy through local participation and I don’t think that’s right.   That’s not right.

Senator White: Terry, would you propose that tax the same percent that you tax any non-profits, I mean any for profit, or would you make a percentage of it taxable?

Mr. Pope: What tax are you speaking?

Senator White: Of the now tax-exempt property owned by the State System.

Mr. Pope: Well all I would do is basically say university, State-owned universities are exempt from school taxes.   I’d say that.

Senator White: Oh, so it would be everything except the school taxes

Mr. Pope: And then as to the other, which is the county and municipal, I would say that they would be exempt for, and this is just a hypothetical, they would be exempt from hypothetical number, 75% of their other taxable rate.   So, whatever it was, if it was $100,000, they’d pay $25,000 because 75% would be.   And I use it that way so that we don’t have to come back and forth and worry about fees for individual and growth of the University or reduction in the size or anything else, because it would just (unintelligible) the law.   If they wanted to build more buildings, it would adjust itself.   If they wanted to tear a building down, it would adjust itself.   And what I don’t like is the idea that what the Commonwealth has done is they’ve caused people that want to be good neighbors but they’re requiring that good neighbor relationships to be subsidized on one side only by the resident and municipality.   That makes it tough to be a good neighbor.

Senator White: Yea, but the intention we’re seeing in the State budget right now if we work with the State university budget is the State taxpayers want to push a larger percentage of that payment to the students (unintelligible).   A lot of people saying ‘I’m never going to get to college, my kids aren’t going to college, none of my families going to college, but I’m paying for that benefit for people who are going to college’.   We do that to a point.   And then there’s a point at which we ask the students themselves, who are the more direct beneficiary for this, I mean obviously we all benefit from an educated society, but the ones that are more direct beneficiaries and will get the economic benefits over the time of their life.   Perhaps now from the average taxpayer who is feeling strapped, is they want to see the students take on a larger percentage of that payment themselves.   That’s the dynamic we have here.   So, you’re right.   If we could spread it over the whole Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, it’s not such a big payment.   If we spread it over the students, you know, maybe it’s a little bit more.

Mr. Pope: And, you know, it’s easy to understand why they feel that way.   Because it’s like this lady said we’re providing a swimming pool for students when they’re only here 9 months a year.   And they are already asking the taxpayers to pay for that.   And we drive down through the University, and they’re all talking on cell phones and they’re all going here and they’re all going there, and it’s very simple and easy to be offended by that if you don’t have any money.   And that’s the problem I have.   I mean I’ve got enough, I can get along.   But a lot of people don’t.   Now I’m not worrying about myself.   I don’t rent to students, never have, never would.   I’m not worried about it.   But I’m worried about all these people in the community like this lady who really have an unfair burden and don’t have the support and representation it appears to voice it.   And that’s not right.

Representative McIlhattan: Let me see if I understand you Terry.   Let’s hypothetically, let’s say the University had a value of $1 million in assets as far as the real estate value was concerned.   And we’d say we’d pick out a percentage and say 80% of it, tax exempt.   Now do we use the millage of the Borough to apply to this?

Mr. Pope: Yes.  

Representative McIlhattan: Okay.   Okay.

Mr. Pope: And the County.

Representative McIlhattan: Okay.   So, we take that 20% and apply that millage to it and that would be what they would pay?

Mr. Pope: Yes.

Representative McIlhattan: Okay.

Senator White: Do we have any idea what that number of that is in dollars?

Mr. Pope: We could figure that out.   The concept that I want to bring out

Representative McIlhattan: And I was just trying to make sure I understood it.

Senator White: Well, at some point, we’re going to have to figure out what the right percent is.

Mr. Pope: Oh yea.   That’s where the Council, I think, will get involved in (unintelligible) judgment.

Mr. Bob Sawyer: I’m just a new member of the Clarion-Limestone School Board.   I didn’t plan on saying anything today but a couple of things that Terry said has puzzled me.   Because a month or so ago, he came to our school board meeting and he hammered on the previous school boards for them accepting the in lieu of from the University Foundation.   Because as a resident of our school district, he felt we had that money coming.   And it was his obligation to get that money coming into our district.   Then he comes out here today and he says, and I agreed with most of what Terry said when he was standing behind this podium until I saw Senator White taking notes and I’m thinking, I’m wondering if she’s taking notes because she might want to draft some legislation here, now he’s standing here saying ‘everybody deserves a piece of this pie except the school district’.   I’m having a real, real hard time figuring out where he’s coming from here.   Because what he’s saying is everybody deserves a piece of the piece except the school districts because we’re not bearing the brunt of the students being here.   Everybody else is but not the school districts.   But yet he was there a month ago wanting us to get in on a piece of this pie.   The only thing I have to say about that is, I talked to Rich about this yesterday, I would have an idea that Clarion University as well as all the other universities want nothing more than for the surrounding school districts to send them quality students.   But they don’t want to help pay for it.   And this is not the thought of Clarion University, the laws won’t permit them to help fund the high schools and the elementary schools to send the higher education quality students.   So, that’s why I’m taking exception to the one point that Terry just brought up.   I don’t understand how everybody gets a piece of the pie except the school districts.   Now I’m confused, because I’m hearing two things out of his mouth.

Mr. Pope: Well I can tell you why I said that, and I have changed.   And the reason I have changed is because I went to the school district and I talked to you about it, and then we had a subsequent meeting as you know.   And Mr. Kaufman was there as well, Dr. Kaufman, and what I hadn’t considered before was that the fact that you people didn’t have much interest in it.   You signed an agreement in lieu of taxes, you agreed to allow properties to be exempt without obtaining a legal opinion, you were content in the position that you were in, you were content with that position even though the local court said that that property was taxable, and you still are content with the position of the non-taxable.   So, I got to thinking about ‘well what’s the motivation for that type of thought process’.   And the motivation became clear to me.   And I do acknowledge I changed my position, because it became clear to me because you’re not really affected that much.   These people in the County and the Borough, which I have no association with other than being a taxpayer, and I’m a taxpayer at Clarion-Limestone, too, they’re affected by cost with every person they put up there, and the school district is not.   So, I thought to myself, I missed the simple issue.   It’s an economic issue, it’s not a political issue, they’re just affected by it much.

Mr. Sawyer: Okay, well I just wanted to state while you were taking your notes that I disagreed with his point on the school district view on this from my own standpoint.   And that’s all I had to say.   Thank you.

President Wilshire: Thank you.   Okay, does anyone from Council have anything to say?   Concise.

Mr. Herman: The only thing Ron was I wanted to thank both of them for coming.   This was the reason that Earl and I really hammered in trying to get this going for the last few months.   Just because there’s obviously a need for this discussion, and the discussion has been great, and I think everyone’s really pointed out, we’ve really gotten down to the crutch of the issue, and I think the issue is well defined.   I thank everyone who has spoken to define those issues.   And we see where we are.   Obviously now you know, have some facts as to where we are, and I just can’t thank you guys enough for being here and taking this back and for doing what you can.   I agree with Dr. Kerr and the proof is (unintelligible) yet to come, but I know you guys are going to work hard at it and we really do thank you.

Mr. Zerfoss: I just want to say Ron, since I’m the oldest one here, and I hope that Senator White and Representative McIlhattan can work it out.   I’ve been on since the 1960’s and I’ve always said that I have 2 out of my 3 children live in the Borough and pay taxes.   But I have 10 grandchildren.   And if they would like to stay in Clarion Borough, I don’t know if they could afford to stay in Clarion Borough under the present tax structure, if they wanted to.   So, continue to keep my legacy going by hopefully coming up with something.   Maybe 1 of those 10 grandchildren could replace me on Council when I’m ready to go off.

President Wilshire: So, hopefully they’re ready in another 30 years.  

Mr. Zerfoss: Yea.

President Wilshire: I’d also like to thank Fred and Mary Jo for coming.   I know that meetings can be uncomfortable.   But I’d also like to thank the public.   I think this was a good idea, because we did get some new ideas (unintelligible) a lot of things to think about.

Senator White: Well when we have something ready, I’m going to ask you Ron to reconnect with your other borough people in the other State-System universities so that we can also run this passed them and see if we could get their support, because we’re going to need it.

On a motion by Mr. Herman with a second by Ms. Moore, the Special Council Meeting was adjourned at 2:46 p.m.

                                                                                                  ______________________________

                                                                                                  Carol Lapinto

                                                                                                  Borough Secretary