April 6, 2004, Public Hearing

The Clarion Borough Council held a Public Hearing on April 6, 2004, at 6:45 p.m. in the Assembly Room of the Clarion Free Library, the purpose of the hearing was to receive public comments regarding a request by Mr. Brian Acey, petitioning Clarion Borough Council to vacate the right-of-way of Whitehill Place, an unopened north-south Borough alley appearing on the Heidrick Plan of Lots.

A list of those people in attendance is attached to the Official File Copy of these minutes

Ms. Vavrek, Chairman of the Housing and Zoning Committee, called the hearing to order at 6:47 p.m.

Ms. Vavrek stated Mr. Acey has petitioned Council for the vacation of the right-of-way of Whitehill Place, an unopened north-south Borough alley appearing on the Heidrick Plan of Lots, adopted by the Borough in 1906.   The alleyway in question abuts 22 lots along Wilson Avenue and Grand Avenue and affects 11 property owners.   Ms. Vavrek commented Mr. Acey has been joined by 6 of these property owners, constituting 82% of the owners of real property.   Ms. Vavrek asked Mr. Acey for additional comments.

Mr. Brian Acey: I’ve petitioned the Borough to vacate a paper alley that is behind some lots that I own on Grand Avenue.   Currently, it’s not being used.   It’s a pretty straight shot right through the middle of them.   I’d just like to thank everyone in advance for hearing it.   And if there’s any other questions, I’d be glad to answer them.

Ms. Vavrek: Could you talk a little bit about what you’re going to put there?

Mr. Acey: Yea.   Well actually I’m uncertain to what’s going to go there.   Probably apartments.   I’ve purchased three lots adjoining each other.   I own the two trailers that are along Payne Street.   They’re old, ancient trailers that I’d like to remove.   The vacant lot behind, there’s nothing there except an old foundation. Then I also own the white house below that as well.   That’s what my plans are.

Mr. German: Are your neighbors aware of your plan?

Mr. Acey: I don’t know.   I haven’t made them public other than just being asked what, I haven’t applied for a building permit or anything like that if that’s what you’re asking.   So, no, there’s no reason, I haven’t brought it up with anyone to speak of as far as neighbors go.   I would like to point out that most of it is a college housing scenario pretty much with the exception of two or three homes across there.

President Wilshire: Who signed the petition if it wasn’t your neighbors?

Ms. Vavrek: There were 6 neighbors’ petitions there that you sent.   There are 6 of these here that have been signed by your neighbors.

Mr. Acey: I misunderstood the question.   My plan, or are you talking the plan to vacate the alley?

Ms. Vavrek: It’s about vacating the alley.

Mr. Acey: I’ve sent letters out to every address on the sheet, have responses back from the majority of them.

Mr. Zerfoss: Did anybody return a response to you that they don’t want to participate?

Mr. Acey: No.   Nope.

Mr. Zerfoss: Is there some that didn’t respond at all?

Mr. Herman: There would be 5.

Mr. Acey: Well actually it would be 5 then, but actually it was 4.   I got a phone call from one that was beyond the date after I submitted everything and they were okay with it.

Mr. Ragon: Everybody who didn’t participate in Brian’s petition was notified by the Borough of what he intended to do with the, of the vacation of the alley.

Mr. Zerfoss: Did they respond back to the Borough then?

Mr. Ragon: They weren’t required to, no.   They were only being notified of the action.

Mr. Zerfoss: Right, they’re weren’t required to, but they made no contact.

Mr. Ragon: One of the property owners did call me and all they did was asked what was going on and what would happen to his property but he expressed no objection to the request.

Mr. Herman: Brian, you would own how many lots down there?

Mr. Acey: I own three; well I have two by deed and one tomorrow by deed, so I’ll have three adjoining lots.

Mr. Herman: Now, the trailers sit on one lot?

Mr. Acey: Correct.

Mr. Herman: So, what you’re calling one lot is from Grand Avenue up to Wilson Avenue?

Mr. Acey: No, the block is split by an alley in between

Mr. Herman: Right.   I just wanted to differentiate between, how you’re counting,

Mr. Acey: Okay, they would be parallel to each other.

Mr. Herman: I’m aware of the two trailers that are sitting there, and there’s like a sunken foundation next to one trailer that faces Grand Avenue.

Mr. Acey: Correct.

Mr. Herman: Those are the three lots you’re talking about.

Mr. Acey: Correct.

Mr. Herman:   The information you sent out to the property owners said they would get 10’.    In actuality, Bob says that’s 16’ wide so they would only get 8’.   So, that information technically is not correct.   So, they’ve signed off on something that is not correct.

Mr. German: Where you aware of that?

Mr. Acey: No, I came out and talked about that before it was thoroughly researched I thought it was 10 or 20’ alley and it turns out to be a 16’ paper alley.   That’s the gist of that, the 2’ difference.  

Mr. Herman: This, of course, is land the Borough currently owns.   I have my own feeling a little bit about property that the Borough owns that would be given away.   We were pretty much advised about a year ago that whatever land the Borough owns might want to ask for a price.    I’m curious in addition to that to see whether there’s been any kind of a survey.   Have you thought about doing a survey to establish where the lines actually would be and then where that new property line would be?

Mr. Acey: That’s a good question.   Basically, if you use the common sense approach to it and you look across the alley that’s across the street and you look straight down through, you can basically see how the lots were originally laid out.   I hadn’t thought too much about getting a survey done.   The issues are if you went through and looked some of the actual property owners have constructed garages or have done landscaping or have used it to dump leaves or trees.  

Mr. Herman:   Brian, my only problem with the whole thing, outside of the fact that it’s land the Borough’s going to be giving away 16’, my problem with not having a survey done is almost anybody who does anything as far as purchasing a plot of land whether it be to build a house or whatever in order to establish property lines have to have a survey done.   And surveys are a common practice.   This area hasn’t been surveyed since the 1900’s.   I’m just wondering prudently working with all these property owners and whatever might be sitting there, an established property line would be a good thing in that someone’s not guessing now.   Again, we’re establishing square footage of someone’s lot of what someone’s going to pay taxes on, and I just think it would be a good common sense thing as well as something to establish for one of those property owners that a property line be established and not just go through line of site. That’s one of the reasons why people do surveys to really establish where that mark is going to be.   I just feel a little uncomfortable myself not knowing exactly where that property line could be as it relates to each one of the person’s property to how they’ve defined what they think their property line.   I think it’s something that I would ask for personally because I think that we’re talking about so many properties that as this thing were to be advertised and approved then part of the problem is that somebody decides to put a shed there so they put a shed up and now it’s on someone else’s property.

Mr. Acey: Mr. Ragon as diligent as he is would surely catch a 15’ setback on an 8’ alley before it probably became a problem.   I can understand what you’re asking as far as the survey goes.   Through some research, I’ve looked at other alleys and this has been a common thing in the past.   They went perpendicular to what I’m asking.   But I basically didn’t see any survey maps.   The areas in question I think it’s pretty much established where the roads are the length of the lots to a reasonable degree of certainty that I don’t think that would happen.

Mr. Herman: We’re dealing with the legal issue here and legal terms, it just seems to be appropriate an established property line is really going down this whole length of what we’re talking about, and somebody has to establish exactly where, because you’re going to have somebody come out eventually measure someone’s square footage for how much property taxes.   Again, I just think in the overall scheme of things, what seemingly looks like an easy thing is really a legal thing.   And legally speaking, I think as far as Council’s concerned I think Council should take a hard look at property lines where they’re established.   And right now there’s nothing established here on this 16’ wide portion that the Borough owns.   There’s absolutely nothing there to prove that the property can be measured from x-spot.

President Wilshire: Bob, do we have any description on the map or anything?

Mr. Ragon: We would only have the deed descriptions for each individual property.   We do have a plot plan from when that section of the Borough was adopted.   I have that on file in my office.   That’s where I located it was only a 16’ alley versus 20’ when it was adopted in 1906.

President Wilshire: It doesn’t specifically say where this alley would have been?

Mr. Ragon: It will show you on the plot plan.   But as the lots have been broken up, basically the alley stayed where it was, but the properties were either incorporated or cut in half, combined.   Each deed description on file at the Courthouse will tell you what the lot size is and where they measured.

President Wilshire: So, we really wouldn’t know specifically what we’re abandoning?

Mr. Ragon: Only from the deed descriptions and some of those are vague because you’ll find them that they say from the rotten apple tree on the intersection, which that apple tree is gone now.   Some of the deed descriptions back then they used just was sitting there and those things have vanished.

Ms. Vavrek: And what about if property owners wanted to sell what they have now, or what they would have even in a couple of years 8’ or how many feet they gained?  

Mr. Ragon: That would be a matter between the buyer and the seller as to whether they wanted to do a survey and establish exactly where the lot ended and began.

Ms. Vavrek: And the concern was, too, whether anyone now currently could be encroaching on someone else’s 2’, 5’, or

Mr. Acey: That’s a legitimate question and to answer that I have looked down through a transient site, and I’m not a surveyor, you may have some encroaching slightly, but no one’s been bold enough to build the whole way across the Borough right-of-way.   And I think Mr. Ragon could attest to that as well.

Mr. Ragon:   I did go down there and walked down through the properties.   And from what I could determine from where I saw the line of site, nobody is encroaching far enough over that they’ll cover the whole right-of-way.

Mr. Herman: It appears that way.

Mr. Ragon: It appears that way, yes.

Mr. Herman: But we don’t know that.

Mr. Ragon: No.

Mr. Herman: And we’re being asked to vote on something that we don’t know for certain.   That’s my point.  

Mr. Ragon: Right.

Mr. Herman: I just don’t feel that guess work plays into somebody’s property line, I just don’t think that’s something the Borough ought to be involved with is guessing on somebody’s property.  

Mr. Acey: If I could add, there are boundaries established.   Like the deed that I have possession to clearly states these lot sizes that I already own.   And that is a square block through there.   Basically what the surveyor would do is come out and establish all those lots and what was left in the middle would be the alley.   And it would work out as pretty much the way it’s laid out there.

Mr. Herman: Brian, I understand that.   But I have a lot that was just sold right next door to where I live.   It had been surveyed twice in the past 6 years.   It was surveyed again just to make sure to establish that that property line was where the other surveyors said it would be.   So, that they didn’t violate any code that it was built exactly where they needed to build it.   I just think it would be a prudent thing for the Borough to say ‘Brian, this is a nice idea, but we’d like to see the property line established’ and then everyone along, those 11 properties owners know exactly where their property line is.   They could come back and say ‘this is fine’ and I’d probably vote on it.   Until I know that, I’m just personally having a problem.

Mr. Acey:   To clarify a little bit about your neighbor’s property, too, if it was a purchaser, refinancer, or mortgage, probably the bank is the one requiring them to get title and that’s the condition title insurance not common all the time.   I just want to point out.

Mr. Herman: Well would we look at an issue like that and then have this issue when the Borough would give property away that it owns and then say there is property transaction out there.   Just like happening to my neighbor, to my neighboring lot.   That’s a property transaction there.   And someone eventually is going to build on these lots.   So, why wouldn’t we want to establish the property line.   I mean it just makes common sense that the property line here going all the way through there be established.  

Mr. Acey: Well I understand that and appreciate that, I’m not belaboring it.

Mr. Herman: I would wish you well in building, I have no problem with that.   It would be better than those trailers that are sitting there.

Mr. Acey: Thank you.

Mr. Herman: So, I feel positive about that in what you’re trying to do with that, but I just feel very strong about the property line issue.

Mr. Acey: I would like the Councilmembers to consider what I said as far as the past practice, most recently was the one that vacated on, Whitehill, was that required to be surveyed as well?   Just last month, 2 months ago?

Mr. Ragon: Hulings Street.

Mr. Acey: Hulings.

Mr. Herman: That was x-number of feet.

Mr. Ragon: And that only involved two property owners

Mr. Herman: That’s correct.

Mr. Ragon: and both petitioned.

Mr. Acey: Okay.

Ms. Vavrek: Does anyone else have any other questions at this time?

Mr. Zerfoss: If Council does grant this, inotherwords give it away, eventually it will come back on the tax rolls?

Ms. Lapinto: Yes.

Mr. Zerfoss: So, the question is if I’m one of those property owners and don’t agree and oppose Brian and Council granted it, I’m going to end up getting it whether I want it or not and pay taxes on it whether I want to or not.   I mean it isn’t going to be that much taxes at all, if Council agrees, everyone’s going to get their share of that property?

Mr. Ragon: Correct.

Mr. Zerfoss: And if Council does agree, none of this is any expense right now to the Borough of Clarion except if we give this right-of-way away.   I mean the cost of advertising, anything to the Borough, is the Borough going to pay for this?

Mr. Ragon: No, we would not.

Mr. German: Brian, would you be willing to do any of the things Mr. Herman just talked about?

Mr. Acey: Honestly, probably not.   I would do my own, that would be a diligent thing that I will probably have done anyway to establish the setbacks and things of that sort.   But I wouldn’t be willing to foot the bill to have a survey; and that would be an expensive proposition across there, far more than what the benefits would be.

Mr. Herman: But maybe those other property owners would like to know that, too, and maybe they wouldn’t mind if they would be eventually getting that property to establish property lines.   It would help them as well.   They may be interested.

Mr. Acey: That’s a strong possibility as well.   But I don’t see any of them here voicing any opinion or even if that was, I guess they may want to do that.   No one’s brought it up to me until Friday and today.

Mr. Zerfoss: Are most of these all rentals?   There’s very few if any

Mr. Acey: Probably two or three residences there and all the rest would be student rentals.   Is that about right Bob?

Mr. Ragon: Two residences and one was a single-family that’s now vacant.

Mr. Zerfoss: You said two residences, Bob?

Mr. Ragon: Yea.  

Mr. Zerfoss: And one is vacant now?

Mr. Ragon: Right.

Ms. Moore: You mean permanently vacant?

Mr. Ragon: No.

Ms. Moore: For sale or

Mr. Ragon: No, it’s just vacant, because the property owner is deceased.

Ms. Vavrek: Any other questions?

Ms. Vavrek adjourned the Public Hearing at 7:13 p.m., with action to be taken at the Council Meeting.

                                                                                                  ______________________________

                                                                                                  Carol Lapinto

                                                                                                  Borough Secretary