September 6, 2005, Public Hearing

The Clarion Borough Council held a Public Hearing on September 6, 2005, at 6:45 p.m. in the Assembly Room of the Clarion Free Library, the purpose of the hearing was to receive testimony regarding a request from Mr. and Mrs. Kline Proud for reconsideration of the conditional use of property located at 615 Wood Street, which was granted by Council on July 2, 1991, to allow two-family occupancy as not more than three unrelated persons per dwelling.

A list of those people in attendance is attached to the Official File Copy of these minutes.

Ms. Vavrek, Chair of the Housing and Zoning Committee, called the hearing to order at 6:45 p.m.

Ms. Vavrek: Mr. Kline Proud is here tonight.  He had been here previously to talk about rezoning his property located at 615 Wood Street.  He wishes to convert or to change the zoning to R-2.  It currently is R-1.  He wishes to change it to R-2 and to allow three people in each of his current apartments.  It’s my understanding that he does have the proper number of rooms to accommodate this.  The Planning Commission met on August 9th.  They recommend that the condition to R-2 occupancy be granted.  Mr. Proud, do you want to explain again what you’re trying to do.

Mr. Kline Proud: Well I have some pictures, if they would like to see them.  Does anybody want to review them?

Ms. Vavrek: Does anyone here wish to see his pictures?  He did have them here last time, would you like to see them again?  Anyone? 

Mr. Proud: Not necessary.

Ms. Vavrek: Since school has started, can you tell me how many people you have in there now?

Mr. Proud: Right now we have two on the top side and three on the bottom side, but one of them is a school teacher is not there all the time, but the other one will be.  And they plan on being there for four years.

Ms. Vavrek: Okay.

Mr. Proud: If we are approved for the three people, I do feel that I would like to only maintain three.  I insist we only have the three.  We have the three bedrooms.  If there’s any problem that somebody else is moving in, we don’t want it because it’s more wear and tear on our equipment.  And a major responsibility as far as liability goes.  We do buy liability for them and make sure that if anybody is hurt on the property, premises there, they are taken care of.  I did want to, feel that 10 years expired since the time we had two people in there.  Yes, we’ve had other people that have come and gone.  But the taxes have gone up and I didn’t complain.  I didn’t complain when water went up and sewage went up.  Everything goes up.  But here we’re still trying to maintain a home for two people when we do have availability for three.  I do feel that the improvements that were done on the property, the beautification, whatever you want to call it has been done to our fullest.  I wouldn’t be ashamed to have anybody go in that home and inspect it and ask, I wouldn’t mind living here.  When I first moved in there, it was a; people that had it before; and if there was a knot hole in the floor there was a piece of metal over it, a tin can.  And I just told the wife this is a bad deal, but she’s done wonderful there.  I’m very proud of her.  I hope we’re able to get approved for three people tonight.

Ms. Vavrek: Now you do understand that there are times when our Zoning Officer does go and inspect apartments, not just yours others.

Mr. Proud: And we just chatted a minute ago and I paid the paving people to paint some lines on there.  But apparently didn’t do the job that met the requirements, which we can talk about afterwards.  We can change the lines on the parking lot.  So, we do have adequate parking; and I do feel that my wife has been a good house mother.  As far as people, I don’t know if, whether we had any complaints with our students in the, on the premises.  If there are any people underage, we’ve had them either evicted or whatever might be to clear up the problems.  And I would like to see that we get approved tonight.

Mr. Ragon: Are you aware Kline that there are three people in each apartment right now?

Mr. Proud: Two.

Mr. Ragon: No, there are three in each one and they all claim to have leases.

Mr. Proud:  Yea. 

Mr. Ragon: In each apartment, there’s three people there right now.

Mr. Proud: Yea.  I just said there was two in there that’s under the lease.  The other one is, they’re going to be going away to teach school.

Mr. Ragon: Well there are three in each apartment right now.  You said there was two in one and three in the other.

Mr. Proud: I (unintelligible).

Mr. Ragon: And they all claim to have leases.

Mr. Proud: All right.  I really don’t know.  I tell you the truth, I don’t know. 

Ms. Vavrek: Well I think, you know, and that might be the issue here.  Because when you were here the last time, you said you didn’t feel that you were responsible for knowing how many people were in there.

Mr. Proud: Well

Ms. Vavrek: And I think you are, I mean I don’t think it, I know that you are.

Mr. Proud: Well I feel that this is their castle.  And if they want to have some people come in and share the expenses with this, I can’t, I don’t know, this to me; when I went to school, I went down to Miami.  There were probably 10 of us, we rented a home (unintelligible).  The landlord, of course, didn’t care that there were 10 or 15.  And I would, in my case, I do feel that the place is adequate for three.

Ms. Vavrek: And I agree with you that it’s adequate.

Mr. Proud: Um hum.

Ms. Vavrek: But I want to also impress upon you that three is the limit in each apartment.

Mr. Proud: I agree (unintelligible).

Ms. Vavrek: I don’t care who’s friend is coming; I mean to visit is one thing but to live there is quite another.

Mr. Proud:  Right.

Ms. Vavrek: So, I think that’s what I need to impress upon you is (unintelligible).

Mr. Proud: (Unintelligible).  Yea.

Ms. Vavrek: I didn’t know if anyone else had any questions.

Mr. Crooks: Bob, the situation that is going on now isn’t really the one that we’re to debate tonight.  We’re to debate whether the property should be change from an R-1 to an R-2.  And, you know, if there’s rules being broken now, that’s up to you to enforce them.

Mr. Ragon: That’s what brought this all about.

Mr. Crooks: Right, but I, and I do think Mr. Proud realizes that three doesn’t mean four. 

Mr. Proud: Um hum.

Mr. Crooks: So a landlord does have a responsibility to make sure that the lease is being followed.  And I’m sure he understands that.  But I agree 100% with him.  He certainly maintains his property better than far, far majority of the landlords in the area.  He’s done a beautiful job.  And there is adequate parking, how many spaces are there Bob?

Mr. Ragon: Well right now there’s 7.

Mr. Crooks: Seven?

Mr. Ragon: But they’re not quite standard size, so there will be less than that.  But there will be ample spaces for six people. 

Mr. Crooks: Yea.

Mr. Ragon: And I’m not questioning Mr. Proud’s upkeep of the place.

Mr. Crooks: Yes.

Mr. Ragon: That’s not an issue.

Mr. Crooks: Right.

Mr. German: Jim, I do think that it raises a question that if he’s not in compliance now, and we grant this, he’s clearly stated that it’s not his job to police it.  So, if he gets three in there, then it turns to four.

Mr. Crooks: Well that’s Bob’s job.

Mr. German: I understand that.

Mr. Crooks: That’s Bob’s job.

Mr. German: I understand that, but

Mr. Crooks: He has the authority and he has the legal right to issue a fine demanding that, you know, there only be two or three people there.  That’s what he, that’s what we pay him for.

Mr. German: Okay.

Mr. Zerfoss: If we use that approach and we say it’s Bob’s job.  Bob could never do with all the landlords and the housing that we have, he could never get around from one school year to the other.  And I’m concerned, too, because you haven’t really changed that much from last month.  When you, you still think, I get the impression that you think that (unintelligible) not your responsibility, if you already have three in there now and we haven’t given permission.  And if next month you get four, it’s us and not you. 

Mr. Proud: (Unintelligible).

Mr. Zerfoss:  I think you’re wrong.

Mr. Proud: (Unintelligible) no reason not to get approved.  I mean you seem like your penalizing me for, hoping by gosh that we can get this thing squared away this evening.

Mr. Zerfoss: No, I’m not penalizing you.

Mr. Proud:  All right.

Mr. Zerfoss: You think, again my question is do you have any intentions of enforcing, if you’re granted

Mr. Proud: We will

Mr. Zerfoss: three?

Mr. Proud: definitely enforce for three occupancy per apartment.  I don’t want any more than four.  I don’t want anybody trying to sneak in and say, because our liability might be such that if somebody gets hurt on the premises, ‘well, what are you doing here; you’re not paying me any rent?’.  So, we don’t want anybody (unintelligible) into the home.  Other than a few people that have been approved.

Mr. German: Mr. Proud, you had said that you don’t know how many leases are out there right now, am I correct?

Mr. Proud: Huh?

Mr. German: How many leases you have signed at this time?

Mr. Proud: I don’t know.  I don’t know.  The wife does that.  And I don’t, she might be a little hot headed and I didn’t want to have her here tonight wanting to bark at you guys.

Mr. German: Okay, okay.

Mr. Proud: And I just want to go home and tell her the good news.  That’s all I want to do.

Mr. German: Okay.

Ms. Vavrek: Anyone else have any questions?

Mr. Herman: I just wanted to ask a question.  If I remember in the zoning map, which I can see over Bill’s head over there and I guess here too, the area is an R-2?

Mr. Ragon: No.

Mr. Herman: I mean they’re in Commercial but it’s surrounded by an R-2?

Mr. Ragon: Across the street.

Mr. Herman: And in the Commercial District on Main Street, are there apartments that have four, five, six

Mr. Crooks: No.

Mr. Herman: people in them?

Mr. Ragon: Four.

Mr. Crooks: No.  Four is max.

Mr. Herman: In the Commercial?

Mr. Crooks: In anywhere in the Borough.

Mr. Herman: No, I just wanted to get the lay of the land.

Mr. Vavrek: Anyone else?

Mr. Crooks: I guess my point is if Mr. Proud or any landlord is breaking the law, the system’s in place, correct Bob?

Mr. Ragon: Correct.

Mr. Crooks: The system is in place, you would inspect the apartment, you just inspected a couple of mine, to ask questions of the tenants, and the letter is sent out these are the things, just like I got.  These are the things you got to do to bring these apartments up.  And Bob has the authority; and if Mr. Proud hasn’t been following the rules already, that’s a legal problem just like a police problem.  Right now we’re to look to consider whether this property should go from an R-1 to an R-2.  And if there is something, a law broken, Bob’s got to deal with that.

Mr. German: Bob, what would your recommendation be on this specific?

Mr. Ragon: My feeling is the apartment is adequate for three people, the parking is adequate.  I’m particularly offended that the situation continues despite the fact that Mr. Proud was told he was in violation; and yet not knowing whether he got permission to have three people in his apartment, he leased the apartment to three people without Borough Council’s permission.  That’s what offends me.

Mr. Proud: But you got to remember, if my wife waited ‘til today to go ahead and fill this, I see no reason why we wouldn’t be approved many months ago.  And here we are up to this date and we asked people ‘yes, it will be approved and we’ll get it done’.  All the effort in the world has been done to make sure that the property is adequate for the three people.

Mr. Ragon: That’s not my concern.

Mr. Proud: I can make sure there’s no more than three people in there.  No reason that I want to add more than three.

Mr. Ragon: Then why couldn’t you in the past make sure than there were no more than two?

Mr. Proud: Because we went by the, with the tax structure we had 10 years ago.  And if we had three or four at that time, there would have been no problem.  But now times have changed, now we have, we couldn’t complain (unintelligible) adequate.  But now it’s getting to the point where we’re going to have more income.  Taxes are going up, I’m not complaining.  Can you complain to the tax structure, you have to pay it.

Mr. Ragon: You can complain, but it doesn’t make any difference.

Mr. Proud: But here we got an opportunity to utilize another bedroom and make this thing strictly legal.  That’s it.

Mr. Ragon: And that would have been the recourse to do prior to putting three people in there.

Mr. Proud: We’ve tried,

Mr. Ragon: Correct?

Mr. Proud: we’ve tried.  Last month, there was nobody in the place.

Hearing no other questions or comments, Ms. Vavrek adjourned the Public Hearing at 6:59 p.m. with action to be taken at the Council Meeting.

                     ______________________________

                     Carol Lapinto

                     Borough Secretary